pzfaust:

There is no dignity in losing.  All war boils down to one thing: victory or defeat. 

You're no longer worth arguing with, in my opinion. And the fact that you think the ONLY way to fight range is at maximum distance means that you should be the one out of this discussion. Any archer worth fighting can fight in all situations, from maximal ego range to windmill radius. If you can't do that, you should become a mage, they're built to always be at a distance. Being capable of fighting deep within my potential range doesn't mean I have the mentality of a melee fighter, it makes me versatile.

And for the next argument you get yourself into, don't tell people to think harder just because they disagree with you. It just makes you look like an idiot with a superiority complex.

Also, you think that a human giving up on an elf is walking away is cowardly, but that there's now cowardice in the elf skittering away all the time, staying out of range and waiting for the human to close in. As far as I can see, you're just another face in the hordes of players who have no honour or dignity when it comes to a fight.

Anyway, I'm done. @OP, in case you still hadn't gotten an answer or lost it among pointless arguments, LLB over crossbow for both races.

Fracture:

pzfaust:

There is no dignity in losing.  All war boils down to one thing: victory or defeat. 

You're no longer worth arguing with, in my opinion. And the fact that you think the ONLY way to fight range is at maximum distance means that you should be the one out of this discussion. Any archer worth fighting can fight in all situations, from maximal ego range to windmill radius. If you can't do that, you should become a mage, they're built to always be at a distance. Being capable of fighting deep within my potential range doesn't mean I have the mentality of a melee fighter, it makes me versatile.

And for the next argument you get yourself into, don't tell people to think harder just because they disagree with you. It just makes you look like an idiot with a superiority complex.

Also, you think that a human giving up on an elf is walking away is cowardly, but that there's now cowardice in the elf skittering away all the time, staying out of range and waiting for the human to close in. As far as I can see, you're just another face in the hordes of players who have no honour or dignity when it comes to a fight.

Anyway, I'm done. @OP, in case you still hadn't gotten an answer or lost it among pointless arguments, LLB over crossbow for both races.

 I gotta agree with Fracture on this one. I've been playing an elf on mabi for a while (by no means do i call myself a pro mind you) and I can tell you that while engaging any enemy at maximum range is an ideal circumstance, its not a reality. Often when ranging the enemy will close to next to point-blank range. Where's your maximum distance now? Even if you try to use an elfs 1.8X faster than human speed, youll make very little headway in opening a gap and most likely run out of room. And thats not even counting a faster enemy, say a giant or fast mob. If you want to be an experienced archer, you need to be proficient with all range types.

Humans are better in pve, not because they aim faster, not because they have 0 sec loading speed with ar, but because BOTH the elf and human archers will miss, humans have higher hp and defence in most cases and while both could shoot off 2 or 3 more arrows before the attack hits, chances are is that YOU WILL PANIC, a elf has a 0.3 loading speed for archery, why would they wm? whereas a human archer when out of ar shots will almost always wm

DPS wise, i'd actually say the elf would win because damage buffs get applyed to both shots so a endgame elf would have about 10 or 20 less damage per shot than a human, but who cares when youve got 2 arrows every 5 seconds and a dps of over 2k compared to a human that can probably get 1.4k at the most? (non crit shots for all of them if your wondering)

pvp wise it really depends on lag, no lag provides a MUCH better boost to an elf than a human, chain locking anyone?

as for the first question, ring bow for damage and lower level dungeons, comp bow for crit and higher level ones, wing bow for range and field boss hunting

Fracture:

CrimSin:

Really, Fracture? -goes to look it up for himself- I always thought that elves got more damage with the dex they possess. Someone told me they got 1 damage increase by every 3 dexterity instead of 5 like humans. It doesn't state any damage difference on the wiki from what I can see, but I swear that's how it was...

Humans and elves both get 1 MAX per 2.5 dex, and 1 MIN per 3.5 dex. It may effect injury and balance differently for the two, but I doubt it.

Roderna:

Fracture:

TehFunji:

Why the heck is a human archer as good as an elf? >:(

Higher potential damage, faster aim speed, relies on skill rather than spam, etc.As far as I'm concerned, the elves that are on par or better than humans in a fair fight are few and far between.

 In fact~~Unless human rank ranged to 1,the aim speed of human will always slower than elf,even with more speed up on ranking .......Because elf have higher base aim speed~~The aim speed of elf and human will be equal at rank 1~~~

In fact, you're wrong. At rF range, with 100% each, humans and elves aim at the exact same speed. Elf ranged grows to 200% from rf-r1, whereas human range grows from 100%-300%. A human will always aim faster than an elf with the same range rank, period. No exceptions. Especially a Human with AR, who can aim at up to 350% aim speed.

I think you might be mistaking aim speed and load speed, but even then you'd be wrong, as elves always load faster than humans. I'm not really sure though, it's hard to make it out between the massive ellipse and the barrage of tildes.

 

Correction: The speed at which the aim meter rises stays the same, but the first shot of AR (at r1) STARTS with a 50% aim meter. So it basically reduces the time required to reach 99% aim by half, and makes it so that you can basically fire immediately after aiming without much worry of a miss.

Now, seeing as how this thread has turned into another EvH thread. . .

Elves, if they're near the enemy, DO have a higher damage output than humans. But in PvP, that doesn't matter, since the elf is dead by the time its aim meter is at 50% due to humans' insane aim speed.

Elves are better for PvE (in terms of pure range) due to the much shorter mag load time and the high damage output of their normal ranged attack.

But when it comes to PvP. . . Humans are superior. Period.

pzfaust:

Fracture:

You say "scouting and reconnaissance teams". Like thef said, this isn't a live war, being directed by anyone in command of an army. It's urban battle, plain and simple. And yeah, I kinda do consider it cowardly for en elf to do nothing but hit and run. If you've ever seen human archers fighting, there's some dignity to it- they're on even ground, and (most) don't abuse wimpy techniques to win.

There is no dignity in losing.  All war boils down to one thing: victory or defeat.  You can't say Americans are cowardly for using A-bombs in WW2.  Besides, first golden rule of long-range fight is : keep your distance.  If you fail to honor that, you have no business in discussion long-range combat in the first place.  You have the mentality of a melee fighter which make you unsuitable for long-range combat.

My advice to you: read some medieval war history, especially about how Mongols could conquer most of Asia and Europe and their tactics.

You're trying too hard. WAY too hard. This isn't real life. It's a game. It doesn't function as real life does. It functions as a game does.

You also seem to think that all human archers are totally impatient and stupid enough to walk into an elfs range while they're range locked. A patient enough human can make an elf come to them, where suddenly damage and aiming speed factor in quite a bit.

Your reactions show you're impatient and quick to judge.  If you think hit-and-run cowardly, you already lost the argument.  Like I said, first rule of long-range combat is keeping the distance. 

What's with this crappy psych analysis? You can't really judge a person's personality over the Internet. Your attempt to try and do so shows that you're presumptuous and destroys the bases for most of your arguments.

Elves mobility advantages boil down to one outcome in an elf vs human encounter (max every factors including time & skills): either human gives up the chase and abandon the fight (which I consider cowardly hehe), or let elf archers hit them and try to retaliate.  But smart elf won't necessarily give humans that chance to fight back.

You're talking as one who's read up on the game a lot but has never really seen Mabinogi PvP.

The only things to benefit archers in general at all, other than the gimmick of a counterpart to FH, Final Shot, the elf range boost, is more skills that add dex.

 Final shot isn't gimmick.  Before that, elf waits for human to close in to get first hit.  With FS, elf can take the fight to humans.  Think more about it.  

Five minute cooldown time. Can be cancelled in the same way as a meleer's FH. 'Nuff said.

All in all though, since you seem to be taking this as an argument about war, you can't deny that humans would win, simply from being a jack of all trades (not traits). They might have a slight disadvantage when fighting elves and giants, but the fact that a human can be incredibly proficient at all three major combat styles means that they will win almost invariably if it came to a large-scale battle.

Nah....real war is won by organized and disciplined groups of warriors, not by silly individual duels.  Being jack of all trades won't help because there are limitations placed on your inventory space as well as weapon slots. 

A bow on the primary slot, a melee weapon and shield on the other. Enough room in inventory for several weapons of every combat type. 

 Plus, time is required to charge magics and swap weapons.  Mobility again will comes to play whenever time and space limitation is there.  AP's are not unlimited either. 

You finally got something right. Good job.

Like I said, it requires group efforts and need scouts like elves.  Any army no matter how good, will lose without intelligence.

Once again, this isn't real life. It's a game, with rules of its own. And the only time you'll see "armies" fighting each other is at the GW. Most people know the approximate strength of the most powerful guilds of a server. Reconnaissance isn't necessary.

 

Also, no race will be the masters of alchemy. Period. It's completely the same for every race. And elves are actually better at magic than humans. Despite the delusion most people have about them they are, at their core, a magical race. In range they have a slight advantage, though not much, and in melee, despite the running speed which can get really [censored!] annoying in PvP, they are at a tremendous disadvantage, in magic they're unsurpassed. The running speed, combined with higher base mana, higher INT growth and lower charge cast for IS makes them the race to choose for magic users.

Not necessarily, newbie elves are given an ego bow for a purpose.  See... you're not thinking hard enough. 

No, you're thinking too hard and thus seeing points that aren't there. 

 Still think devCAT is stupid in giving elves an ego bow, human an ego sword, and giants an ego hammer (remember Eiry?)  Magic for elves is a plus, but not what they're good at.

By that logic, humans are best-suited for melee. But humans are made for more than melee, so I guess that theory's blown.

Fracture is CORRECT. Humans and elves each have their pros and cons when it comes to range, their respective strengths and weaknesses. But when it comes to magic, elves are better, and nobody can dispute that.

Again, don't drown yourself in numbers, think..think...think.

By thinking too much, you've shown yourself to be a fool. You're OVERTHINKING.

You also seem to think they plan to modify hide to make it game-breaking in later generations. DevCat isn't (aren't?) stupid, they ignored the cries that I don't doubt a lot of elf users in KR put up to make hide better, and I seriously doubt they'll cave.

It's YOU who SAID devCAT were smoking when they created elves, not I.  Ever wonder why devCAT chooses to up elves' accuracy from 90% to 94% (a 40% reduction in chance of missing) against walking targets, and only 80 to 82% against running ones?  Yeah, that's right, they wanna punish those humans with bows and want them to stick to crossbows.  I always consider devCAT ppl smartest game designers I've come across.  

Where'd this 40% reduction come from? Don't drown yourself in number now. Think. . . think. . . think. . .

And it's ridiculously naive to think that this very minor change in aim was intended to send the humans scrambling for their crossbows. The fact that you'd think that shows that you're not as keen a judge of human nature as you apparently think yourself to be. 

Btw, even you can see hide action can be game-breaking in pvp.  Ever wonder why it's created in the first place?? Hmmm...I don't remember ever using it in  pve other than transformation quests.  It's most likely designed for pvp, and will be used as such when they see the need and have time to work more on it. 

And this works again on my earlier point: anybody who knows jack about PvP knows that the hide skill doesn't work in it.

CreativeName:

Fracture:

CrimSin:

Really, Fracture? -goes to look it up for himself- I always thought that elves got more damage with the dex they possess. Someone told me they got 1 damage increase by every 3 dexterity instead of 5 like humans. It doesn't state any damage difference on the wiki from what I can see, but I swear that's how it was...

Humans and elves both get 1 MAX per 2.5 dex, and 1 MIN per 3.5 dex. It may effect injury and balance differently for the two, but I doubt it.

Roderna:

Fracture:

TehFunji:

Why the heck is a human archer as good as an elf? >:(

Higher potential damage, faster aim speed, relies on skill rather than spam, etc.As far as I'm concerned, the elves that are on par or better than humans in a fair fight are few and far between.

 In fact~~Unless human rank ranged to 1,the aim speed of human will always slower than elf,even with more speed up on ranking .......Because elf have higher base aim speed~~The aim speed of elf and human will be equal at rank 1~~~

In fact, you're wrong. At rF range, with 100% each, humans and elves aim at the exact same speed. Elf ranged grows to 200% from rf-r1, whereas human range grows from 100%-300%. A human will always aim faster than an elf with the same range rank, period. No exceptions. Especially a Human with AR, who can aim at up to 350% aim speed.

I think you might be mistaking aim speed and load speed, but even then you'd be wrong, as elves always load faster than humans. I'm not really sure though, it's hard to make it out between the massive ellipse and the barrage of tildes.

 

Correction: The speed at which the aim meter rises stays the same, but the first shot of AR (at r1) STARTS with a 50% aim meter. So it basically reduces the time required to reach 99% aim by half, and makes it so that you can basically fire immediately after aiming without much worry of a miss.

Just from personal experience, I'm almost certain it's actually a speed increase, but I'll do my best with a high-speed capture program to get some non-anecdotal evidence to prove it one way or another. Either way though, it pretty much means that your first AR shot is pretty much guaranteed to hit at any range as long as the target is stationary even if you don't aim.

Fracture:

CreativeName:

Fracture:

CrimSin:

Really, Fracture? -goes to look it up for himself- I always thought that elves got more damage with the dex they possess. Someone told me they got 1 damage increase by every 3 dexterity instead of 5 like humans. It doesn't state any damage difference on the wiki from what I can see, but I swear that's how it was...

Humans and elves both get 1 MAX per 2.5 dex, and 1 MIN per 3.5 dex. It may effect injury and balance differently for the two, but I doubt it.

Roderna:

Fracture:

TehFunji:

Why the heck is a human archer as good as an elf? >:(

Higher potential damage, faster aim speed, relies on skill rather than spam, etc.As far as I'm concerned, the elves that are on par or better than humans in a fair fight are few and far between.

 In fact~~Unless human rank ranged to 1,the aim speed of human will always slower than elf,even with more speed up on ranking .......Because elf have higher base aim speed~~The aim speed of elf and human will be equal at rank 1~~~

In fact, you're wrong. At rF range, with 100% each, humans and elves aim at the exact same speed. Elf ranged grows to 200% from rf-r1, whereas human range grows from 100%-300%. A human will always aim faster than an elf with the same range rank, period. No exceptions. Especially a Human with AR, who can aim at up to 350% aim speed.

I think you might be mistaking aim speed and load speed, but even then you'd be wrong, as elves always load faster than humans. I'm not really sure though, it's hard to make it out between the massive ellipse and the barrage of tildes.

 

Correction: The speed at which the aim meter rises stays the same, but the first shot of AR (at r1) STARTS with a 50% aim meter. So it basically reduces the time required to reach 99% aim by half, and makes it so that you can basically fire immediately after aiming without much worry of a miss.

Just from personal experience, I'm almost certain it's actually a speed increase, but I'll do my best with a high-speed capture program to get some non-anecdotal evidence to prove it one way or another. Either way though, it pretty much means that your first AR shot is pretty much guaranteed to hit at any range as long as the target is stationary even if you don't aim.

I'll look forward to the results. I'm not completely certain about the way it works, but this is the way I see it. Just seems too big a difference imo with just r5 AR for it to work that way.

Fracture:

Udontknowme:

Well, I'm new to the game and I have an elf (Yes, an elf. Idk if they're cheap or not, I just like elves). And as such, I want to focus on bows.

One of my friends is extolling the benefits of the regular longbow/bow. And another is focusing on crossbows. Which would be a better option for an elf? And is there any difference between the two?

Mk. A few things.

 

You're going to be weaker than human archers 90% of the time. It's a factor of being an elf, the damage of both your arrows may wind up equaling to the damage of a single human's arrow. You're also going to aim slower, and yes- they are cheap.

Actually, damage based, in simpler terms I would think of it as

Elves = 1.5 x 2

Humans = 2

 

Now, in the bows themselves, crossbows are entirely pointless for elves. Like, extremely useless. The whole point of a crossbow is that you can preload a shot while running, which an elf can do anyway.

Now, into the bows you'll be using: LLB's are the best for long-range, but long range isn't where elves do best. Composites get decent damage and very good crit, shoot fairly fast and have lower range than longbows.

The shortbow shoots the fastest, making it the best spam-shot (where elves do best) bow, though the stats on it are shameful.

Actually, a 10 dur dropped Short Bow, when fully modded has more max damage than a LLB fully modded, down side will be it has 0% crit

Don't be fooled by the appeal of an elf-only Guardian bow, they're crappy.

Yes, they are crappy. 8D