You say "scouting and reconnaissance teams". Like thef said, this isn't a live war, being directed by anyone in command of an army. It's urban battle, plain and simple. And yeah, I kinda do consider it cowardly for en elf to do nothing but hit and run. If you've ever seen human archers fighting, there's some dignity to it- they're on even ground, and (most) don't abuse wimpy techniques to win.
You also seem to think that all human archers are totally impatient and stupid enough to walk into an elfs range while they're range locked. A patient enough human can make an elf come to them, where suddenly damage and aiming speed factor in quite a bit.
The only things to benefit archers in general at all, other than the gimmick of a counterpart to FH, Final Shot, the elf range boost, is more skills that add dex.
All in all though, since you seem to be taking this as an argument about war, you can't deny that humans would win, simply from being a jack of all trades (not traits). They might have a slight disadvantage when fighting elves and giants, but the fact that a human can be incredibly proficient at all three major combat styles means that they will win almost invariably if it came to a large-scale battle.
Also, no race will be the masters of alchemy. Period. It's completely the same for every race. And elves are actually better at magic than humans. Despite the delusion most people have about them they are, at their core, a magical race. In range they have a slight advantage, though not much, and in melee, despite the running speed which can get really [censored!] annoying in PvP, they are at a tremendous disadvantage, in magic they're unsurpassed. The running speed, combined with higher base mana, higher INT growth and lower charge cast for IS makes them the race to choose for magic users.
You also seem to think they plan to modify hide to make it game-breaking in later generations. DevCat isn't (aren't?) stupid, they ignored the cries that I don't doubt a lot of elf users in KR put up to make hide better, and I seriously doubt they'll cave.
Elves are good at getting the first shot off and humans are good at keeping the enemy at bay with AR.
Back to the topic, elves shouldn't really consider crossbows as a weapon choice, and humans without high rank AR and range shouldn't conisder it either. Leather Long Bow is a pretty good weapon in most situations.
Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful.
Any advice for that?
Udontknowme:Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that?
Get AR
thef...: Udontknowme: Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that? Get AR
Udontknowme: Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that?
What is AR?
Udontknowme: thef...: Udontknowme: Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that? Get AR What is AR?
My bad, just read the first post and saw you're an elf. Rank ranged attack then.
thef...: Udontknowme: thef...: Udontknowme: Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that? Get AR What is AR? My bad, just read the first post and saw you're an elf. Rank ranged attack then.
Off Topic: Also, 2-Handed Swords can't be used by elves (just found that out today), I think...only Giants and Humans.
Udontknowme: thef...: Udontknowme: thef...: Udontknowme: Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that? Get AR What is AR? My bad, just read the first post and saw you're an elf. Rank ranged attack then. Actually, should be my bad; I created a human instead of an elf. Off Topic: Also, 2-Handed Swords can't be used by elves (just found that out today), I think...only Giants and Humans.
Arrow revolver. playing a human without arrow revolver is like playing an elf with rank F ranged. It's not going to work.
thef...: Udontknowme: thef...: Udontknowme: thef...: Udontknowme: Hm. I found the main reason I dislike range is that in PvE (I don't PvP), it's hard (for me at least) to shift from ranged to melee weapon before I get slaughtered. Especially against bosses like the Small Golem in Ciar Beginner. I can easily beat him with a Fluted Short Sword or my Two-Handed Sword but if I try to use my longbow, at maximum range, I can't seem to shift in time before I get nailed. Even a hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem to work, because everything seems to be faster then me. Also, aggro + range = awful. Any advice for that? Get AR What is AR? My bad, just read the first post and saw you're an elf. Rank ranged attack then. Actually, should be my bad; I created a human instead of an elf. Off Topic: Also, 2-Handed Swords can't be used by elves (just found that out today), I think...only Giants and Humans. Arrow revolver. playing a human without arrow revolver is like playing an elf with rank F ranged. It's not going to work.
Actually, I played quite well without AR, ranking Magnum and Ranged to r1 before getting even rF AR. I did perfectly fine. Even now, AR is more of a dex and PvP skill, I much prefer Magnum for PvE. That may change with a ringbow though.
dduudeee:It's a relatively long and frustrating quest (if you're not going to buy it), which requires you to get 10 pages that may or may not drop from monsters, put them in a book, and exchange with Aranwen. To start the quest, talk to Aranwen with the keyword "Skills" while having the Fire Arrow title on. Mabinogi Wiki has the list of monsters they drop from.
But getting it yourself is so much more rewarding. At the end you can say; "Yeah, I fought my way through long, pain in the ass dungeons and earned AR." instead of "lol, i rich i bot all page i pwn you." (Sadly enough, I actually have had someone say that to me. Total lv12 and he had AR.)
Fracture:You say "scouting and reconnaissance teams". Like thef said, this isn't a live war, being directed by anyone in command of an army. It's urban battle, plain and simple. And yeah, I kinda do consider it cowardly for en elf to do nothing but hit and run. If you've ever seen human archers fighting, there's some dignity to it- they're on even ground, and (most) don't abuse wimpy techniques to win.There is no dignity in losing. All war boils down to one thing: victory or defeat. You can't say Americans are cowardly for using A-bombs in WW2. Besides, first golden rule of long-range fight is : keep your distance. If you fail to honor that, you have no business in discussion long-range combat in the first place. You have the mentality of a melee fighter which make you unsuitable for long-range combat.My advice to you: read some medieval war history, especially about how Mongols could conquer most of Asia and Europe and their tactics. You also seem to think that all human archers are totally impatient and stupid enough to walk into an elfs range while they're range locked. A patient enough human can make an elf come to them, where suddenly damage and aiming speed factor in quite a bit.Your reactions show you're impatient and quick to judge. If you think hit-and-run cowardly, you already lost the argument. Like I said, first rule of long-range combat is keeping the distance. Elves mobility advantages boil down to one outcome in an elf vs human encounter (max every factors including time & skills): either human gives up the chase and abandon the fight (which I consider cowardly hehe), or let elf archers hit them and try to retaliate. But smart elf won't necessarily give humans that chance to fight back. The only things to benefit archers in general at all, other than the gimmick of a counterpart to FH, Final Shot, the elf range boost, is more skills that add dex. Final shot isn't gimmick. Before that, elf waits for human to close in to get first hit. With FS, elf can take the fight to humans. Think more about it. All in all though, since you seem to be taking this as an argument about war, you can't deny that humans would win, simply from being a jack of all trades (not traits). They might have a slight disadvantage when fighting elves and giants, but the fact that a human can be incredibly proficient at all three major combat styles means that they will win almost invariably if it came to a large-scale battle.Nah....real war is won by organized and disciplined groups of warriors, not by silly individual duels. Being jack of all trades won't help because there are limitations placed on your inventory space as well as weapon slots. Plus, time is required to charge magics and swap weapons. Mobility again will comes to play whenever time and space limitation is there. AP's are not unlimited either. Like I said, it requires group efforts and need scouts like elves. Any army no matter how good, will lose without intelligence. Also, no race will be the masters of alchemy. Period. It's completely the same for every race. And elves are actually better at magic than humans. Despite the delusion most people have about them they are, at their core, a magical race. In range they have a slight advantage, though not much, and in melee, despite the running speed which can get really [censored!] annoying in PvP, they are at a tremendous disadvantage, in magic they're unsurpassed. The running speed, combined with higher base mana, higher INT growth and lower charge cast for IS makes them the race to choose for magic users.Not necessarily, newbie elves are given an ego bow for a purpose. See... you're not thinking hard enough. Still think devCAT is stupid in giving elves an ego bow, human an ego sword, and giants an ego hammer (remember Eiry?) Magic for elves is a plus, but not what they're good at.Again, don't drown yourself in numbers, think..think...think. You also seem to think they plan to modify hide to make it game-breaking in later generations. DevCat isn't (aren't?) stupid, they ignored the cries that I don't doubt a lot of elf users in KR put up to make hide better, and I seriously doubt they'll cave.It's YOU who SAID devCAT were smoking when they created elves, not I. Ever wonder why devCAT chooses to up elves' accuracy from 90% to 94% (a 40% reduction in chance of missing) against walking targets, and only 80 to 82% against running ones? Yeah, that's right, they wanna punish those humans with bows and want them to stick to crossbows. I always consider devCAT ppl smartest game designers I've come across. Btw, even you can see hide action can be game-breaking in pvp. Ever wonder why it's created in the first place?? Hmmm...I don't remember ever using it in pve other than transformation quests. It's most likely designed for pvp, and will be used as such when they see the need and have time to work more on it.
There is no dignity in losing. All war boils down to one thing: victory or defeat. You can't say Americans are cowardly for using A-bombs in WW2. Besides, first golden rule of long-range fight is : keep your distance. If you fail to honor that, you have no business in discussion long-range combat in the first place. You have the mentality of a melee fighter which make you unsuitable for long-range combat.
My advice to you: read some medieval war history, especially about how Mongols could conquer most of Asia and Europe and their tactics.
Your reactions show you're impatient and quick to judge. If you think hit-and-run cowardly, you already lost the argument. Like I said, first rule of long-range combat is keeping the distance.
Elves mobility advantages boil down to one outcome in an elf vs human encounter (max every factors including time & skills): either human gives up the chase and abandon the fight (which I consider cowardly hehe), or let elf archers hit them and try to retaliate. But smart elf won't necessarily give humans that chance to fight back.
Final shot isn't gimmick. Before that, elf waits for human to close in to get first hit. With FS, elf can take the fight to humans. Think more about it.
Nah....real war is won by organized and disciplined groups of warriors, not by silly individual duels. Being jack of all trades won't help because there are limitations placed on your inventory space as well as weapon slots. Plus, time is required to charge magics and swap weapons. Mobility again will comes to play whenever time and space limitation is there. AP's are not unlimited either.
Like I said, it requires group efforts and need scouts like elves. Any army no matter how good, will lose without intelligence.
Not necessarily, newbie elves are given an ego bow for a purpose. See... you're not thinking hard enough. Still think devCAT is stupid in giving elves an ego bow, human an ego sword, and giants an ego hammer (remember Eiry?) Magic for elves is a plus, but not what they're good at.
Again, don't drown yourself in numbers, think..think...think.
It's YOU who SAID devCAT were smoking when they created elves, not I. Ever wonder why devCAT chooses to up elves' accuracy from 90% to 94% (a 40% reduction in chance of missing) against walking targets, and only 80 to 82% against running ones? Yeah, that's right, they wanna punish those humans with bows and want them to stick to crossbows. I always consider devCAT ppl smartest game designers I've come across.
Btw, even you can see hide action can be game-breaking in pvp. Ever wonder why it's created in the first place?? Hmmm...I don't remember ever using it in pve other than transformation quests. It's most likely designed for pvp, and will be used as such when they see the need and have time to work more on it.
pzfaust: Fracture:The only things to benefit archers in general at all, other than the gimmick of a counterpart to FH, Final Shot, the elf range boost, is more skills that add dex. Final shot isn't gimmick. Before that, elf waits for human to close in to get first hit. With FS, elf can take the fight to humans. Think more about it. Final shot has no place in pvp. A 1.5 second load time at rank 6 plus the load time of ranged attack would take too long. Btw, even you can see hide action can be game-breaking in pvp. Ever wonder why it's created in the first place?? Hmmm...I don't remember ever using it in pve other than transformation quests. It's most likely designed for pvp, and will be used as such when they see the need and have time to work more on itWhat is your obsession with hide? The only time it can be used is before the battle starts or if you decide to run away for 30 seconds. Then what happens? Your opponent has a skill loaded ready to attack when you cancel it.
Fracture:The only things to benefit archers in general at all, other than the gimmick of a counterpart to FH, Final Shot, the elf range boost, is more skills that add dex. Final shot isn't gimmick. Before that, elf waits for human to close in to get first hit. With FS, elf can take the fight to humans. Think more about it. Final shot has no place in pvp. A 1.5 second load time at rank 6 plus the load time of ranged attack would take too long. Btw, even you can see hide action can be game-breaking in pvp. Ever wonder why it's created in the first place?? Hmmm...I don't remember ever using it in pve other than transformation quests. It's most likely designed for pvp, and will be used as such when they see the need and have time to work more on itWhat is your obsession with hide? The only time it can be used is before the battle starts or if you decide to run away for 30 seconds. Then what happens? Your opponent has a skill loaded ready to attack when you cancel it.
Final shot isn't gimmick. Before that, elf waits for human to close in to get first hit. With FS, elf can take the fight to humans. Think more about it. Final shot has no place in pvp. A 1.5 second load time at rank 6 plus the load time of ranged attack would take too long.
Btw, even you can see hide action can be game-breaking in pvp. Ever wonder why it's created in the first place?? Hmmm...I don't remember ever using it in pve other than transformation quests. It's most likely designed for pvp, and will be used as such when they see the need and have time to work more on it
What is your obsession with hide? The only time it can be used is before the battle starts or if you decide to run away for 30 seconds. Then what happens? Your opponent has a skill loaded ready to attack when you cancel it.
Correction to my statement above: I do also think elves are good at magics, but not what devCAT had in mind when they first created them. Magic skills also requires more AP's for elves. So they do function well as mages and maybe better than others, but still have limitations of their own.
Don't just use aiming speed and dmg numbers to judge a race. Reaction time, initiatives, and terrain all have impact on any encounter. Features are implemented with purpose and requires more work than number changing. Any stat can be altered when the need arises.
I don't want to turn this thread into another elf vs human argument, so consider this my last post for the matter.
