Fracture: TehFunji:Why the heck is a human archer as good as an elf? >:( Higher potential damage, faster aim speed, relies on skill rather than spam, etc.As far as I'm concerned, the elves that are on par or better than humans in a fair fight are few and far between.
TehFunji:Why the heck is a human archer as good as an elf? >:(
Higher potential damage, faster aim speed, relies on skill rather than spam, etc.As far as I'm concerned, the elves that are on par or better than humans in a fair fight are few and far between.
In fact~~Unless human rank ranged to 1,the aim speed of human will always slower than elf,even with more speed up on ranking .......Because elf have higher base aim speed~~The aim speed of elf and human will be equal at rank 1~~~
CrimSin:Really, Fracture? -goes to look it up for himself- I always thought that elves got more damage with the dex they possess. Someone told me they got 1 damage increase by every 3 dexterity instead of 5 like humans. It doesn't state any damage difference on the wiki from what I can see, but I swear that's how it was...
Humans and elves both get 1 MAX per 2.5 dex, and 1 MIN per 3.5 dex. It may effect injury and balance differently for the two, but I doubt it.
Roderna: Fracture: TehFunji:Why the heck is a human archer as good as an elf? >:( Higher potential damage, faster aim speed, relies on skill rather than spam, etc.As far as I'm concerned, the elves that are on par or better than humans in a fair fight are few and far between. In fact~~Unless human rank ranged to 1,the aim speed of human will always slower than elf,even with more speed up on ranking .......Because elf have higher base aim speed~~The aim speed of elf and human will be equal at rank 1~~~
In fact, you're wrong. At rF range, with 100% each, humans and elves aim at the exact same speed. Elf ranged grows to 200% from rf-r1, whereas human range grows from 100%-300%. A human will always aim faster than an elf with the same range rank, period. No exceptions. Especially a Human with AR, who can aim at up to 350% aim speed.
I think you might be mistaking aim speed and load speed, but even then you'd be wrong, as elves always load faster than humans. I'm not really sure though, it's hard to make it out between the massive ellipse and the barrage of tildes.
Look, you just need common sense to know an elf archer is better than human archer. If we are talking about archery & archery skills ONLY, here is a simple breakdown:
--- Elf archer: 2x faster moving speed, plus his favorite weapon: a much longer-ranged LLB.
--- Human archer: slow moving speed, plus his favorite weapon: a much shorter-ranged crossbows.
Now, i don't even have to go into other numbers, just these two factors (mobility + shooting range) should tell you on 1 vs 1 situation in an open field, elf archer can hit and human archer and quickly move out of crossbow's range, then wait for human to approach and hit again, before human archer can retaliate.
All those dmg numbers don't mean squat, if you can't even fire a single shot. Now, don't tell me aiming speed of human archer is fast enough to offset his slowness & short shooting range. DevCat ppl aren't dumb when they create elves. If elves are indeed disadvantaged, rest assure that they will rectify if in future patches.
Note, it's not like some old west gunslinger's stand-still "fair fight". As soon as 8x-9x % accuracy is involved, it's hit-or-miss and all about chances. And don't expect a longer ranged, faster moving target will sit there for you to hit as well. Given a chance, any veteran elf archer should use hit-and-run tactic and utilize an open terrain to its full advantage. So, unless DevCat gives humans +speed boots or some spells to slow movement, I expect an elf archer to come up on top most of the time.
Any experienced human duelist would hide behind cover.
Exactly, hence my point. In comparing human vs elf archers, mobility should always be part of the consideration. After all, it's about long-ranged combat and keeping distance while maintaining good visual contact of target is crucial. Street fighting forfeit that advantage.
For regular pve purposes, some elves prefer crossbows because certain nice enchants (e.g. revolving) are only available for crossbows. It really boils down to personal preference in bow choice. Having fun is more important than number crunching.
pzfaust:Look, you just need common sense to know an elf archer is better than human archer. If we are talking about archery & archery skills ONLY, here is a simple breakdown:--- Elf archer: 2x faster moving speed, plus his favorite weapon: a much longer-ranged LLB.They move at 1.5 or 1.6 times the speed of humans, not double. And most elves I've encountered use shortbows, actually. --- Human archer: slow moving speed, plus his favorite weapon: a much shorter-ranged crossbows.Any human archer, fighting elves, will use a LLB, not a crossbow. Now, i don't even have to go into other numbers, just these two factors (mobility + shooting range) should tell you on 1 vs 1 situation in an open field, elf archer can hit and human archer and quickly move out of crossbow's range, then wait for human to approach and hit again, before human archer can retaliate. All those dmg numbers don't mean squat, if you can't even fire a single shot. Now, don't tell me aiming speed of human archer is fast enough to offset his slowness & short shooting range. DevCat ppl aren't dumb when they create elves. If elves are indeed disadvantaged, rest assure that they will rectify if in future patches.Note, it's not like some old west gunslinger's stand-still "fair fight". As soon as 8x-9x % accuracy is involved, it's hit-or-miss and all about chances. And don't expect a longer ranged, faster moving target will sit there for you to hit as well. Given a chance, any veteran elf archer should use hit-and-run tactic and utilize an open terrain to its full advantage. So, unless DevCat gives humans +speed boots or some spells to slow movement, I expect an elf archer to come up on top most of the time.Which, sadly, kills pretty much your entire post.If you actually watched PvP, especially in a PvP-crazy server like Ruairi, you'd realize that the elves lose badly when it comes to pure range. They occasionaly get the odd shot at the human, but unless they can close range, their slow aiming speed spells instant death.And no, elves aren't at a disadvantage. DevCat wasn't being dumb when they made them, they were just smoking something really strong at the time. In fact, they're practically game-breaking, which makes it that much sadder that they suck.As for the terrain thing, elves do try hit and run, but trying this at max range almost invariably gets them killed, especially if the human has a shield and high ranked charge to get them in range where the elf can't run. Also, fights are rarely in pure open-terrain. They're in places like Dunbarton where there's shitloads of cover and enemies everywhere.Your post, sadly, relies on the human archer in question being rather slow-witted and sticking to a crossbow rather than swapping out to a long-range weapon. It also relies on the elven archer being a coward- not that that part of the equation isn't filled 90% of the time.I don't really get why you think a human would be dumb enough to use a crossbow on an elf- we generally use the LLB so we have the exact same range- but at that range we're better. And, because you told me not to even though it's true: a human's aim speed is enough to offset they're lower mobility and loading speed.
They move at 1.5 or 1.6 times the speed of humans, not double. And most elves I've encountered use shortbows, actually.
Any human archer, fighting elves, will use a LLB, not a crossbow.
Which, sadly, kills pretty much your entire post.
If you actually watched PvP, especially in a PvP-crazy server like Ruairi, you'd realize that the elves lose badly when it comes to pure range. They occasionaly get the odd shot at the human, but unless they can close range, their slow aiming speed spells instant death.
And no, elves aren't at a disadvantage. DevCat wasn't being dumb when they made them, they were just smoking something really strong at the time. In fact, they're practically game-breaking, which makes it that much sadder that they suck.
As for the terrain thing, elves do try hit and run, but trying this at max range almost invariably gets them killed, especially if the human has a shield and high ranked charge to get them in range where the elf can't run. Also, fights are rarely in pure open-terrain. They're in places like Dunbarton where there's shitloads of cover and enemies everywhere.
Your post, sadly, relies on the human archer in question being rather slow-witted and sticking to a crossbow rather than swapping out to a long-range weapon. It also relies on the elven archer being a coward- not that that part of the equation isn't filled 90% of the time.
I don't really get why you think a human would be dumb enough to use a crossbow on an elf- we generally use the LLB so we have the exact same range- but at that range we're better.
And, because you told me not to even though it's true: a human's aim speed is enough to offset they're lower mobility and loading speed.
Calling elves cowards pretty much kills all your posts as well. It shows you're not objective enough to discuss combat tactics. Ever been in an army and knows what a combat reconnaince team do? Elves have two more advantages that human archers lack: being able to shoot while mounted and hide action. Now, tell me how you'd offset those with your fast aiming shot?
Human using LLB is same, it's huimans who have to approach elves, not the other way around. Smart elves will use their mobility to keep their distances and hit humans first. If you disregard mobility in your discussion i can dismiss your "aiming speed advantage" as well.
Elves have more tactical options than humans on an open battlefield, it's simple as that.
pzfaust:Calling elves cowards pretty much kills all your posts as well. It shows you're not objective enough to discuss combat tactics. Ever been in an army and knows what a combat reconnaince team do? Elves have two more advantages that human archers lack: being able to shoot while mounted and hide action. Now, tell me how you'd offset those with your fast aiming shot? Human using LLB is same, it's huimans who have to approach elves, not the other way around. Smart elves will use their mobility to keep their distances and hit humans first. If you disregard mobility in your discussion i can dismiss your "aiming speed advantage" as well.Elves have more tactical options than humans on an open battlefield, it's simple as that.
http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Hide#Hide
Cannot be used in the midst of battle. The player must not have been fighting for 30 seconds in order to activate it.
pzfaust:Mobility and all tricks devCat give elves allow them to choose where and when to engage AND disengage, so they enjoy combat initiatives. I also heard that devCat will give elves some accuracy boosts in the coming generation. That surely will offset your aiming advantage. But i don't have to worry about the future like human archers do, devCat ppl will make playing elf archers worthwhile. It's more likely for them to abandon a playing style than an entire race.
you mean in G10 elves can aim up to a max of 82% at a running enemy and 94% at a walking enemy?
Hide action isn't used in the midst of battle, but good for scouting and setting up ambush (more tactical options, so yay). Accuracy boost isn't much i know, but it beats swapping weapons in midst of a fight and that, my friend, already nullifies any aiming advantage human has.
I haven't even gone into the fact elves enjoy more ammunitions ( 500-arrow quiver) and more archery related skills (will be boosted sooner or later). The only thing I hate devCat about their elves is they force elf players to spend too much AP on skills.
In short, elf archers have a brighter future, while human archers' maximum potential is already reached.
pzfaust:Hide action isn't used in the midst of battle, but good for scouting and setting up ambush (more tactical options, so yay). Accuracy boost isn't much i know, but it beats swapping weapons in midst of a fight and that, my friend, already nullifies any aiming advantage human has. I haven't even gone into the fact elves enjoy more ammunitions ( 500-arrow quiver) and more archery related skills (will be boosted sooner or later). The only thing I hate devCat about their elves is they force elf players to spend too much AP on skills. In short, elf archers have a brighter future, while human archers' maximum potential is already reached.
and how would hide be used? Other players can see you in pvp and in pve fake death can be used for humans. Scouting and ambushes? This is a game, not real life.
Everyone already uses those 1000 arrow quivers from the cash shop.
Like the final shot skill that was supposed to be released by now? Or the completely useless mirage missile?
pzfaust:Accuracy boost isn't much i know, but it beats swapping weapons in midst of a fight and that, my friend, already nullifies any aiming advantage human has.
Accuracy boost isn't much i know, but it beats swapping weapons in midst of a fight and that, my friend, already nullifies any aiming advantage human has.
The aiming speed remains the same and will only reduce misses by 10% and 25% if you take the time to aim to the maximum amount.
thef...: pzfaust:Hide action isn't used in the midst of battle, but good for scouting and setting up ambush (more tactical options, so yay). Accuracy boost isn't much i know, but it beats swapping weapons in midst of a fight and that, my friend, already nullifies any aiming advantage human has. I haven't even gone into the fact elves enjoy more ammunitions ( 500-arrow quiver) and more archery related skills (will be boosted sooner or later). The only thing I hate devCat about their elves is they force elf players to spend too much AP on skills. In short, elf archers have a brighter future, while human archers' maximum potential is already reached. and how would hide be used? Other players can see you in pvp and in pve fake death can be used for humans. Scouting and ambushes? This is a game, not real life. Everyone already uses those 1000 arrow quivers from the cash shop. Like the final shot skill that was supposed to be released by now? Or the completely useless mirage missile?
Nothing is completely useless. Even though in pvp people can see through hiding, as long as it's there, it remains an option to possible change in the future. True, 1000-arrows quivers are bought, but those 500-arrow bags are still good in pve. Btw, don't diss any skill yet, they can be changed and whatever changes devCat make in the future about archery, it will be for elves' benefits and not necessary for human archers.
My point is, as long as it's out there, it can be modified to balance out all races. But it's already in devCat's thinking that elves should reign supreme in archery. So any improvement devCat make in archery in the future will have to keep elves in mind.
You have to use a little psychology when you wonder some of decisions devCat made in creating elves. They don't want to piss off their current playerbase right away by making human archers looking weak and elves strong right off the bat. But at same time, you can see the trend that they are adding bits and pieces to where other races need help. Same is for giants. Humans are jack of all traits, but unless they add an additional race, humans are probably going to be master to none except magics or maybe alchemy.
Ultimately it's all about your own playing style. I don't like the myth that human archers are better than elves. But...if this myth spreads far enough, devCat will do something then maybe I shouldn't mind it at all. Just don't mislead new players to think human archers will forever dominate over elf ones. Nothing is set in stone until it's created, and when it's created, it still can be changed. I don't see anything new added to boost human archers other than raise cap for the supporting shot, and that's where this archery thing is going.
